Interview with Janette Alpaugh in her home in Gresham, Oregon 4/3/07.Interviewer: Kathleen Ryan
KRSo I like to start, I start out with really really easy question. If you couldplease say your first and last name and your maiden. And spell you maiden name and your last name for me.
JAMy names is Janette Shaffer Alpaugh.
KRAnd Janette is J-A-N-E-T-T-E.
JAYes. It's a little bit unusual.
KRAnd then Shaffer?
JAS-H-A-F-F-E-R. You spell that different ways too.
KRYou can, you can. Sometimes there's a c in there. And Alpaugh?
KRAnd when did you -- you served in the WAVES, correct?
KRWhen did you serve?
JAUhm -- I went to boot camp of January 1943 and then I left several months00:01:00after the war was over, whenever they let you leave you were discharged.
KRWe can get to that in a bit. Let's start out -- where did you grow up?
JAOh, in Arcadia, Indiana. On a farm about 30 miles north of Indianapolis. Itwas an 80 acre farm. I was the oldest of the children. I have a younger sister and a younger brother. She's just three years younger and then a brother six years younger. My father is an avid sports fan. So all through our life it was sports sport sport. He might have, he never said this and he never implied it, 00:02:00but he probably would have been happy with a boy. Because he loved baseball. He was a fanatic. One of these people who can remember who pitched in 1918 in the World Series. He could just remember that. They didn't have computers and things like that. He was that kind of baseball fan.
JAYes. After -- so he treated both my sister and I -- I never have figured outhow he knew it was alright to do it, because a lot of families didn't. He treated us just like boys. We did farm work that any boy our age would have done. He needed the help. I don't' doubt that. But I know my best girlfriend, now her father just thought that girls should be in the house and help the mother. Then, of course, the Depression came along. When I graduated from high 00:03:00school, I, of course, wanted to go to college but I had no idea the money situation was really tight. But after graduation, my parents talked to me and said, "Well, we think we could send you." I didn't find until years later that they put a mortgage on the farm in order to do it. I really didn't, because, see tuition then -- it's going to sound crazy to people now. It seems very low. But they didn't, you didn't' have that money. It was like 60 dollars a semester. They did not have that money. Also, I knew that money was scarce because it had been scarce through high school. But one thing that was good, everybody in our 00:04:00community -- not everybody, but the majority -- were all on the same level. You might have had a few people, bankers and maybe lawyers and maybe some doctors that had a little bit more money but most of the farm people were all in the same boat.
KRWhen did you graduate from high school?
JA1935. And so I went to Purdue and it -- I didn't even know what people majoredin. I really wanted to major in health and physical education but Purdue had a minor in that. The reason I went to Purdue was I had always been in 4H and done things in baking and cooking and so forth. The only thing I could see was to be a teacher and then I took a minor in physical education. But physical education 00:05:00was really my love. There were four years at Purdue and I was in the athletic association. That's where I spent my time, in the gymnasium, when I had my time off. Then I taught in Wells County, Indiana. The first year, the name of the school, it sounds funny. It's like one of those jokes on TV. It's Petroleum. Petroleum, Indiana. Just a little township school kind of in the northern part of Indiana. I taught home economics and physical education. Then I don't know, I guess I just wanted to -- I enjoyed teaching there. I wanted to leave to a 00:06:00different part of the state. I found out about a job in Kingman, Indiana, which is western Indiana a little bit. There is a state park close by -- gee, I've even forgotten the name of the state park. It was a township school. Do you want me to go on with this?
KRKeep going. I'm fine.
JAI had an interesting interview that I think (laughs) in order to get this job.They told me to write to the chairman of the school board. He was a farmer. I wrote to him and he suggested a time to go see. So I get over there and found 00:07:00out where he lived, where their farm was. I knocked on the door. His wife came to the door and said, "Well, he's in the field, ploughing. If you walk there to the end of the row, you'll be able to see him." Alright, I walked out and he stopped the tractor and he said, "Well, I have to keep on here." I said, "OK." He said, "Just hop up on the back." So I hopped up on the back of the tractor and we went. See, I was used to farming with horses and tractors, so that was alright. So I talked to him the whole time while we went down the field and back and when we go through he said, "Well, I think you can have the job" (laughs). I thought that was kind of funny because normally you wouldn't be interviewed that way. 00:08:00
KRNo. Did you your sister also go to college?
JAYes. She went to Indiana.
JAIndiana University. Indiana would be comparable to University of Oregon andPurdue would be comparable to Oregon State. Although it's mainly an engineering school, it's also a land grant college with agriculture courses and so forth. Now it's one of the leading universities in the whole United States for engineering and aeronautics. A couple of the astronauts have graduated from there in aeronautics. Anyhow, where am I? Oh, I'm over in Kingman --
KRYou're in Kingman.00:09:00
JAteaching. If you taught home economics in those days, in Indiana anyway, youwere also in charge of 4H. So I did 4H in the summer, gathering up girls and having meetings and so forth. Then you always had a county fair at the end of that time. So it was my second year at Kingman that, when Pearl Harbor came about. That was shocking. It probably doesn't seem that way now, but it was then. Because nothing in our lifetime had been like that or expected.
KRWhere were you when you heard about it? Do you remember?
JAYes. Everybody always talks about the different things that happened. A00:10:00girlfriend and I had gone -- this was a Sunday afternoon -- had gone to a movie in Covington, I guess. This was a town south of there. And we came back from the movie and I was driving and stopped to leave her off. Her father -- she was going to go home and her father came running out of the house and said, "We've been attacked at Pearl Harbor." We said, "What?" We thought it was kind of a joke, because you could start out that way and carry on with something other to finish it on a joke angle. "Oh no," he said, "it's not a joke. We've been attacked and so tomorrow we'll be at war." He talked about it a little bit, so then I went back home and heard it on TV, well, not TV, but radio, heard more 00:11:00about it. Then immediately, different, most states started some kind of a citizen's -- oh it would be defense but, physical fitness program for young people, because they knew various young people would be in service. So somewhere or another I got appointed as physical fitness director in that area. You had meetings and you were supposed to set -- like in high schools you set up obstacle courses. Just because in physical education you were working most of the time in sports. YOU had a volleyball unit and basketball. Things of that 00:12:00kind. So you jumped into calisthenics and strength training and obstacle course training and things of that kind. Track and field, in order to get young people, because they knew high school people would be going to service. Well, anyway, so all through that time, obviously, women were never even mentioned in articles or anything. It was that men would be drafted. Most young men wanted to go because they knew about Hitler. Things that were happening in Europe and Britain. 00:13:00England was in bad shape. We'd been reading about things like that. At least you had the impression that you couldn't let Hitler rule the world. Then the Japanese came. I don't know that we would have entered. I presume we would have eventually. But I don't know that we would have entered that early until the Japanese attacked us. The Japanese sort of coordinated not really closely with Hitler. I guess they wanted their sphere of area. They wanted to be sure they kept it all, because they also invaded China at that time, which caused a lot of difficulty. But anyway, as I say, nothing was ever mentioned about women. Of 00:14:00course, they talked about nurses which would be needed and all. All of a sudden after a number of months you saw in the paper that women could join the Army, the Navy and the Marines. The next day I went down, I think to the courthouse, or some building in that county and I signed up.
KRSo you saw a story in the newspaper and the next day you signed up.
JAYes. I don't see how you could have done otherwise. I mean, I was alwaysfurious that all these men were going. Now that sounds, you don't want to go to war, but when you're that young you're protecting your country. I don't want to 00:15:00get into it. I don't happen to feel it's that way now.
KRA number of women I've talked to share your displeasure.
JAIt was completely different. It wasn't optional as I feel this was. It was abad option. Anyway --
KRDid your sister also join the military?
JANo. She -- let's see. She was about, she was teaching at the same time and shealso had gotten married. And that makes a difference because you might have children. And the fellow she married left to become a Navy pilot and she kept teaching school. Obviously, when I think about it, some people did have to stay 00:16:00and teach. Because at the school I was teaching, you had a number of the men teachers left, the coach left and they had to keep trying to find somebody else. It really was difficult to find teachers. But I think I was on this, I don't like to call it feminist, I just call it equality angle. They implied and I knew that, you didn't know really what you were going to do because they didn't have it actually worked out. But it developed as you started to find out that you were replacing men at bases who were going to go out to be shipped overseas. I don't see anything wrong with that. That was good, because you needed a warm 00:17:00body doing any particular job on a base. If they could be used elsewhere, that was fine.
KRYou had the college degree -- did you end up going to officer's training?
JANo. Actually, I did. I applied to officer's training but in my physical theresome little calcified (laughs) object in my neck. I never did really find out what that was. But that didn't deter me. The next couple days I just went down and enlisted. To make a -- as a result of that. That was alright. I entered as a seaman but when I left in 1946, I was a lieutenant j.g. So I went in the middle 00:18:00of my work, I was sent to officer's training and then became and officer. Probably the fact that I went to college before contributed to that, helped with it. Anyway, I felt kind of proud of that.
KRWhat did your parents think? What was your parents' reaction to your enlisting?
JAI didn't even say anything to them, because see, they were -- I was 150 milesfrom where they lived. I don't think they probably cared too much about it. The probably would have said, "Maybe you ought to think about this more." I'm sure that was their feeling. I just did it. Maybe that's kind of the reputation I have in my family (laughs) I don't know. But they didn't object at all. They 00:19:00just kind of looked at me with open eyes, but they helped me. They took me in the station when I had to go to boot camp and put the star in the window just like you would for anybody. They -- so I'm assuming they were kind of proud of it because no one ever seemed to object. As I'm older, because I'm 89 now, I can see how, what they might have been thinking. Maybe they were just thinking, 00:20:00"Well, that's just the way Janette does things all the time." I'll never know really (laughs).
KRWhy the Navy? Why did you choose the Navy over other branches of service?
JAOh, I don't know. I always had -- I have no idea -- I had feelings about theNavy. I have no idea. There was not any particular reason. But once you're in, like you're in a particular school. You cheer for that school, so I assume the Navy had been training than the Army and I'm not sure that was true at all. But you should think best of the group you're with.
KRWere you in the first class at boot camp?
JAActually, I was in the second.
KRThe second. 2059
JAThe second group.00:21:00
KRWhere did you go? Because they weren't at Hunter at that point.
JARight. Cedar Falls, Iowa. I think that's Iowa State, I'm not sure. It was inthe winter, because I went in January. It was cold. You had snow all the time. They did a good job. They had instructor -- we took Naval history and Navy customs and things like that. And since we were at the college you used their mess hall so you had excellent food.
KRDid you stay in the dormitory there?
JAYes, we stayed in the dormitories so that, actually that worked, they had itwell organized. A funny thing did happen to us there. If they had it in a movie, I'd love to see Lucille Ball or somebody doing it (laughs). We had marching 00:22:00every couple of day. So we were in the gymnasium marching. Everything is going fine. We were four abreast, one bunch of four after the other. The officer is charge was, somebody came to the door and called her over. She didn't say "halt." So we were marching ahead and this person kept talking to her. Now, we didn't really know this. Anyway, I was in the second group of four, We come to the end of the gymnasium and she hadn't said, "halt" or "squad left" or right or anything. And so there were stall bars at the end of the gymnasium. I don't know 00:23:00how this first group of four -- I don't think I would have thought of it, but they started climbing the stall bars. So here's four people going up stall bars. We're the second group of four, we started going up stall bars. She turned around and there were about four groups (laughs) up on stall bars. I think that -- you know, then she says. "Halt!" It was really funny.
KRThis was just where the animals would be kept or something like that? You saystall bars.
JAYou don't know about old gymnasiums. Old gymnasiums had stall bars that youused in gymnastics.
KRLike a wall climbing thing?
JAYes. They were carry over from Swedish gymnastics. You'd -- I've never been in00:24:00a class where you used stall bars but you did things from them. You called, you hung from them, you did pull ups with your arms and those sorts of things. But all really good gymnasiums had stall bars. Gymnasiums in those days, it was be from the German immigrants and Swedish and Norwegian -- they would be used to it from Europe. But anyway, it was OK. Has anybody mentioned that the WAVES uniforms, I always got a kick out of this, were designed by a famous designer of that day. Mainbocher. I'm not sure how that was spelled, but it would be like 00:25:00you had Chanel or somebody, some of the names that you heard about. All of the services had good uniforms. Well, anyway it was always exciting at the end of boot camp where you would be sent next. You had various things you could chose from. I have no idea why, but a couple friends and I, we saw the list, it said link trainer training in aviation. We vaguely knew what a link trainer was, but we didn't really know anything about it. But it looked better than -- I'm not good at typing or stenography to work in office work so that appealed to. So I 00:26:00applied for it and got it. Several of us then were sent to Atlanta Naval air station for link trainer training. Do you know anything about a link trainer?
KRI've seen pictures of it, but why don't you describe it for me. Besides,someone who might be listening to this might not know what a link trainer is.
JAThey're like -- obviously they didn't have any computers or any simulatedthings then. It's just a big box, but when the person gets in it you're simulating something like instrument flight. The person operating it is outside 00:27:00and they have a little round device. It's about a foot wide and it's called a crab. The person in the link trainer is the pilot, it's like the inside of the cockpit of the airplane. They have a gyrohorizon and an altimeter to show air speed and they have the stick and they can keep -- they're listening on their earphones to radio signals. If you're coming to a large airport, the area around the airport at that time was divided into four quadrants. If you're coming from 00:28:00one of them, you'll get an A signal. If you're coming from another, you'll get an N signal. It's in morse code. Therefore, if he doesn't know where he is, if the signal gets louder he knows he's going toward it. If the signal gets weak, he knows he's away from it. If he turns and crosses, it goes from the A signal to the N signal. He can pick up what quadrant he's coming from. Because they didn't have the kind of communications at all like they do now. That seems crazy. Anyway, our job is to give the pilot a map and tell him that he's 500 miles from Atlanta and he doesn't know where Atlanta is. He then starts flying, 00:29:00press some buttons in there. If he's -- he's trying to get to the airport. If he's going right, this little device that we have shows which heading he took up, then we give him the signal he would get. So that's sort of what link trainer -- it's like training for instrument flight. AT night, when you can't see anything and with the meager communications they had. All pilots had to go through a session with, Army or Navy or Marine, with some kind of link trainer training. One, men, of course, sailors, were doing the training before. As soon 00:30:00as we came in, they were shipped out to sea. They weren't too happy about it, because a lot of them had been in service before the war. You know, had been in the Navy. They had their families in Pensacola and they didn't want to leave particularly. They liked the jobs they had. So we were the second bunch and there were only about 12 of us and there were 12 or 13 in the first bunch. The sailors were supposed to help orient we WAVES. They didn't, obviously they had to follow orders, but they did what the Navy calls "get lost." They just 00:31:00wouldn't be there. They would be in another part of the building and if somebody would come look for them, they would have reason for why they were over there. But it was because they just did not want to go through with this process of training -- well, they didn't really train us, they just supervised to see that we were doing it right, to get us started. But anyhow -- now I'm not saying every one was that way, but it was a problem.
KRKind of a passive aggressive sort of thing.
KRThey didn't want to give up their jobs for you.
JAYes. That's right.
KRYou can understand that.
JAI can't blame them, because they were serving, they were doing work that theNavy needed done. If you had your family there, you couldn't seen why you 00:32:00couldn't do it on the base as well as on a ship that could be sunk. But another interesting thing for awhile there we got three French pilots that had come over and we didn't have any interpreter. So you had to try to show them what you were to do. They didn't English. We didn't understand French. I didn't know how we got through that, but we did get through some way or other. Every now and then I remember, it seemed funny, but one of them would throw the canopy up and start waving his hands because he didn't know what he was doing. But some way or the other we got through that. Well, we were main side at Pensacola for awhile. 00:33:00
KRAnd you got stationed at Pensacola after Atlanta -- they sent you to Pensacola.
JAYes. I was stationed at Pensacola.
JAThen we were sent to Whiting Field. Pensacola was organized with six or sevensurrounding fields that are 10, 15 miles away from the main field in Pensacola. And at each field they take up a different aspect of flying. At Whiting Field was where they learned instrument flight. Other places would be for night fighters or various things. But, Whiting Field was a new field. It was being built because they didn't need many fields before the war. When we got there it was muddy. They had put up barracks but when it rained it got muddy all the 00:34:00time. Also they weren't prepared for women. They had barracks with windows side by side. There would be men in one barrack and there would be WAVES in the next barrack and they could look across and they could look in the restroom and they could look in if people were dressing. They found out they had to change that real quick. (laughs)
KRDid they use curtains?
JAThey just blackened the windows and maybe I don't know put up blinds in someof them but that was sort of funny the way that worked out. Whiting Field we had interesting things went on. They organized softball teams. I don't know, it 00:35:00would be after mess hall, I guess. Anybody that wanted to play softball, the pilots in training played. We had pretty good games. I always went out to play. I was left handed, so I always played first base. I'd walk around places and they didn't know me but they'd say, "Oh! You're the first baseman!" (laughs) So that was kind of interesting. Then, let's see, I tried -- oh, you could, I forget whether you were seaman first class or third class. I forget which direction it goes. But anyway, you could try for the next rank and I took some tests and did that. About that time, I was sent to OCS. I've forgotten whether 00:36:00there was some application or something or the other.
KRWhat is OCS?
JAOfficer training. And so, I was at link training probably about a year,something like that. WAVES officer training at that time, then we were sent to Northampton, Massachusetts at Smith College. That was interesting. They had their courses worked out real well. I went there in the winter and there was snow. I can remember when you would march, you had to pull on boots. They were nice boots. They weren't like, they weren't necessarily like work boots. I guess you could call them dress boots for your shoes when it was snowy and wet. 00:37:00Anyway, when you would march you would step on the heel of the person in front of you and the boots would always come loose (laughs).
KRIt wasn't intentionally.
JAOh, no. You just couldn't help it. I mean (laughs). Oh, one thing I mightmention, I should have mentioned this at training at Atlanta when we were in training for link trainer training, one thing that -- well, two things that were maybe kind of interesting. They weren't ready for us then either. And they put us up, the Navy contracted a hotel in Atlanta. The base just wasn't ready for 00:38:00women. I think it was the Carlton Hotel, as I remember. Anyway, that was fine. Rooms were great, but they had contracted, of course, for the food at this hotel to feed us. I don't know how much money the hotel contracted for, but they didn't have a cafeteria, they just served us a plate of food. And they were small servings. There was just a little bit of meat and a little bit vegetables. I remember one time, peas was the main vegetable, there was 14 peas. That was all. And all of us, we just didn't get enough food because you know, they're 20, 00:39:0025 year olds. Even though we were at the hotel, they would put us in a bus and take us to the base for the training. That was the way it worked. So we were always eating candy bars (laughs) to fill up on. We kept griping about it and it got better, it got better. But you see I'm assuming the hotel was trying to make money, for whatever. Probably different hotels (undecipherable) for this. One time, I can remember --
KRHow did you come to count the peas?
KRHow did you comem to count the peas?
JABecause there were so few! And they were sitting, I mean, you think "That isour serving of peas?" Because there were so few. (laughs) Also from there one 00:40:00time we were -- well we would get outside hotel we would march to, I don't know, maybe to where the bus was parked. We would march in twos. We had to cross the street and it was a stoplight. I was standing just ready to cross at the stoplight, but it said "stop" so a bunch of us were there. There was a lady with a little boy. He was about, I don't know, three or four years old. He was standing very close to us. He was standing quite close to me. And he just kept looking at us. Oh, his eyes were just so big. Like I say, he's real close. I'm 00:41:00standing there and all of a sudden he reached over and just touched me on the arm. Then he looked over at his mother and said, "I touched one!" (laughs) I don't know whether he -- it was like we were Martians or something. He just -- that was kind of funny. "Mother, I touched one!" Just think how old that little boy would be now. He'd be in his 70s I suppose. (laughs)
KRI'd like to go back to boot camp for a second. Before we return to Smith andyour officer's training camp. Because you were the second group, were you able to get a uniform right away or were their delays?
JAThere were delays. I forget the timing on that, but here were delays. You wentdown and you got a fitting from somebody. They measured you and then, next week 00:42:00you would go down and try on the skirt or something. There would be people there who were hemming them to make sure the length was right and all. So it took awhile, it really did. I really had kind of forgotten that because it didn't seem so important. You were doing so many other things. But that's the way it worked out.
KRI know a couple of other women I've talked to, they talked about the delays.Because especially at the beginning, they were kind of just making it up as they go along.
JAYes, I think so. They had to hire people see to do the alterations and allthat. Well, the material. All that had to be shipped. If you were in the middle 00:43:00of Iowa, I don't think construction was done around there. So it was probably done in the east in some factory, I'm assuming, like in South Carolina or somewhere. Now, I don't remember that. It just didn't seem important. We were so busy going to classes it didn't matter.
KRIt wasn't like one of you were in uniform and the other ones weren't. You wereall kind of --
JANo, I don't think so. Our bunch got them about the same time. I didn't noticeanything like that.
KRSo you went to Smith then for officer's training.
JAWell, you just took various courses. This didn't have anything to do with thetraining, but the one girl I was rooming with, it was my first experience with 00:44:00anybody from the South. She and I had a little bit of time off, I mean, that we weren't scheduled. She was sitting across this small table from me and I was writing my letter and she was writing hers. I've forgotten her name now. Anyway, I looked up and she thought I was lookking at her letter. I wasn't. I was just trying to think, I guess. Anyway, she, what was there was an envelope. I had no idea whether it was an envelope or a piece of paper or what it was. It was an envelope. She thought I was looking at it and she said, "I bet you are wondering why I'm addressing this that way." I said, "What do you mean? I don't know." I 00:45:00said, "I don't even know what you had there." She said, "Well, I'm writing now to my negro maid." And she said, "I did not put Mrs. or Miss on it,. I put Betty Smith, because I would not put Mrs. or Miss in front of a black person's name." And I just, you know? She was the registrar, or the assistant registrar, I don't know which, at one of the southern colleges and you know, had joined the WAVES. But that was my first experience, you know, since I had lived in the North before all the time, with how southern people thought about. I've just always remembered that. And I was, "Oh, no. I didn't wonder that." But anyway, she 00:46:00thought she had to explain.
KRAnd this was before the WAVES became, because I know the WAVES eventually letAfrican American women in, but this was before the WAVES allowed.
JAEvidently. I didn't know they did. I didn't know.
KRThere were a handful.
JAThat's good. I didn't know. There weren't any where I was, but that's good,that's great. Though this isn't OCS at Atlanta for training, something did happen to me. The second thing that showed me how the south was that I didn't even think about. I got on a bus to go to Atlanta. I'm in uniform, I'm by myself. I'm halfway back the bus and a very elderly black lady, just hunched over like she could hardly walk got on and came down the aisle. I got up to give 00:47:00her my seat. And the bus driver said, "Ma'am! Sit down." I was the only one standing up, so I knew he must mean me. He said, "She must go to the back of the bus." I said, "What?" Because the bus was pretty full. He said, "She must go to the back of the bus. I want you to sit down." Now I'm ashamed I sat down. But I think I did the right thing. Being in uniform, I shouldn't have created a disturbance. It wasn't the time to be Rosa Parks. But I'm ashamed of it still. It wasn't the thing to do, because if I wouldn't have, if I had caused a big disturbance, I would have been taken. He would have called the cops. The Navy 00:48:00doesn't want a person in uniform, you know. Anyway, I sat down and she went to the back of the bus. But I'll never forget that. Because,you see, I wasn't used to that, if you're from the north. But that lets you know what the situation was. I mean, it was just that way. Well, nothing unusual happened at OCS. Because I did like sports so well, something did turn out well. Here we were at Smith, with a nice gymnasium. I kept thinking, "Why don't we have some sports?" Because we took classes and we'd go down for marching and some calisthenics. But that was that. So I kept thing, "Well, you've got all these other young people. 00:49:00Why can't we be trying basketball or something?" So I went to the lady, head officer, "Isn't there some time we could schedule some basketball? Anybody who shows up could just play." And she said, "Oh, that's a good idea. I don't know why we don't do it." So they fixed something up for Sundays when you had free time. We did that and that was alright. I think because I did that (laughs) -- I didn't think that was anything unusual. I did that because I wanted to play. It was kind of an honor to be chosen as squad leader at the end, just before you left. I don't know how that got started or why it was that way. But if you got selected there were various things you got to do. And one of them, you were 00:50:00invited to the home of Mrs. Hoover who was still there, retired. I think President Hoover had died by then, I'm not sure. Anyhow, all of the squad leaders were invited to her home and I think have a tea or something and all, but the reason I got to do it was because I wanted to play basketball and always I though that was kind of interesting. They wrote that down on my sheet as "leadership qualities." Well, there wasn't any leadership quality. I just thought it was kind of dumb that we were wasting our time. But anyhow, it happened that when we were to leave they said the she was not feeling well and we were to not do it on that day we were scheduled to go, so we never did get to do it. 00:51:00
KRWhere did you go after officer's training?
JAWell, then I was sent back to Pensacola. I was surprised about that, but theassignment was I was athletic officer. Because I had minored, they could see from my school records in physical education. Another WAVE and I were the two WAVES in charge of all athletics for women at Pensacola. They didn't have a physical education or physical fitness program set up for women. So we were told they, we went to the men's department, "Just set up anything you want." Well, 00:52:00anyway, they gave us some instructions like what the men had done and so forth. I loved it. That wasn't even like being in service. What was heady about it -- now this was 1945. You know, women's departments in schools and colleges were always secondary to the men. You had all these men's sports and you didn't have women's sports. You had physical education classes, but there were only a few states that had competitive sports. Iowa was one. Indiana wasn't. The east did some. The men, for part of their physical fitness, used sports and set up teams, so we did too. They encouraged us to do that. You had all these outlying bases 00:53:00that had WAVES. Like I said, that was how Pensacola was set up, how Pensacola is structured. So it would be like intramurals. You would set up volleyball teams at Corey Field or Whiting Field or the main base and it was up to us to coordinate them to see that they could play each other, get buses to go there and all. The system we developed, this other WAVE and I, if you, you had to get so much exercise during the week. You could do it by coming to calisthenics so many times, which we directed or you could, the big bases like Pensacola have 00:54:00bowling alleys and swimming pools and you could even go horseback riding. So there's opportunity. Or you could play tennis. There were people there always. These were places like a town. So we worked out a system that if you went to, you could do five sets of sports. You could play tennis one time and you filled out what we called chits. Then this place kept those and it was our job to collect them. If you went bowling for an hour, that counted. We collected all 00:55:00those chits for each WAVE. There were about a thousand WAVES there. We didn't check all of them, but we did random check, like take one person's name and see whether she had done it four, five times a week. Whether she had come to calisthenics, there were these records. Anyway, this was the system that we worked out. Then in order to have the calisthenics this other WAVE and I had to do it. We scheduled calisthenics at six thirty in the morning in their dormitory. We would go to the dormitory and anybody who wanted to get part of their exercise that way. They signed a sheet and we directed the exercise and they did it in their pajamas (laughs). Can you imagine? But that was hard on us. 00:56:00We had to get up in the mornings and go over there. We had done that awhile and one WAVE, I knew her I guess, she came up to me and said, "Miss Alpaugh" or "Miss Shaffer?" she said. "There's something I know." And I said, "What are you talking about?" She said, "When you've been out the night before or come in late or have been drinking or something," she said, "you don't give any exercises where we bend over!" (laughs) And I said, "I didn't realize that," but I said, "maybe that's true!" But I'll never forget that.
KRYou're tipping your hand.
JAYes. We're only doing things where we're standing up (laughs). Anyway, thatwas -- like I say -- a heady experience for us, because what we started out, 00:57:00these people don't have any exercise outfits. They just have the WAVE uniform and they have slacks. They don't have any shorts or anything. And that wasn't any problem. They just gave us some books where you could order and it was like you would at a school, ordering uniforms. They said, "You just pick out what you want and we'll order 3,000 of them." And nobody ever before in my experience, or most women's experience, in a school would do that for women. So it was equal. If a man could check out shorts or get shorts, see, for the activity, so could the women. See that was the first time I'd come up with equality. But that was 00:58:00interesting so we picked out an outfit that WAVES could go, and when they came in they just checked it out like you checked out shorts or slacks or something. They could keep them and they could change into them if they played tennis or did some kind of activity. But, that was really, I'm going to say fun. Because we were encouraged, we had all these intramural teams playing. That was really a big job. Because you had all these teams and referees for them and see that just like you would a college sports program. Then from that bunch, like the men did, 00:59:00you picked a station team. It would be like the varsity team in a college. See the Navy was always proud of their station teams because they would play the Army, Egland Air Force Base, or Camp Ruecker, Alabama, down there. That was quite a bit deal. When I was at Pensacola, on the station baseball team was Ted Williams.
KRThe baseball player.
JAYes. He was in pilot's training. And he couldn't play all the time. It woulddepend on his schedule. He would play when he could, because I remember I would see him for some games. Made it a point to go to the ballgame. So we had those station teams. To me, at that time, that was a big deal. Because you just didn't 01:00:00have that at high school and colleges. Obviously, funny things happened there. I remember one time we went to Camp Ruecker, Alabama. And that was all, everything was OK. Another thing, when you would go, you had a game scheduled several hundred miles away, you flew. That sounds crazy to people but pilots needed flying time, so that counted. It wasn't that you were anything excess that were causing the taxpayers trouble, because pilots would sometimes check out planes just to fly. Because they had to have so many hours, even if they were 01:01:00instructors they had to keep up so many hours. So therefore, to fly those teams around counted as their hours. But to us, that was something. All you had to do was pick up up the phone and say, "We are going to play Camp Ruecker as so and so a time. We want to leave at such such a time, we want to get there at so and so time." They give you a time to come out and get on the plane and you went there. Now that's in 1945. See, that was unusual. At that time it was.
JAFor women. That's my point. Well, this one time I was trying to get to. Wewent to Camp Ruecker, Alabama. OK, that's alright. But we got there a little bit early. A lot of times they'd have food set out, but they had beer in cans set 01:02:00out from the mess hall. They kept pushing it on the team. I saw, "I can't have these people drinking beer (laughs) and they play softball." And I kept going around saying, "You know, why don't you drink something else. Just wait. We can do this after the game. Not before." I'll never forget that. I had the most awful time trying to take beer out of people's hands. So they, but I blame Camp Ruecker. They had this set up.
KRThey were trying to throw the game.
JAThey had -- I'll never forget that. I forget whether we won or lost. I thinkwe won, because we had a really good team. We had a couple of pitchers who were great. Anyhow, that's that. Now, I want to mention something else that happened as an example of the times. I had leave, I don't know, I'd been in a year and a 01:03:00half or two years and hadn't been home. I got leave to go home. OK. I go home, go home to Indiana and then go over to Kingman where I taught last and visit some friends there. Visited this one girl, woman that I knew real well. I don't know, we went somewhere, out to eat probably. We went home and I went to leave her off. I go in the house, I guess. Her sister was in there. I didn't know her sister. I had never met her sister. I was in uniform because you had to wear them all the time. And her sister said -- like I said, I didn't know, I don't 01:04:00know if I ever saw her sister -- "I want you to leave!" Just as soon as I stepped in the door. She wanted me to leave; I couldn't imagine what was going on. And Teresa, this friend of mine, said to her, I don't know her name, "What do you mean?" She said, "It's because of her that my husband has to go out on a ship and any woman in uniform should not be in." She said, "It's the worst thing that ever happened to our country." You see, from her point of view, that was how she thought. But I, I was astounded. I just said, "Oh, no, they need everybody." I just said a few things then I turned around and left. There was no point in arguing or anything. But I'll never forget that because that was a shocker. 01:05:00
KRSo not everyone was accepting of the women
JANo, no! So you see, it would depend on that situation. That little situation.Another thing happened. Maybe this was the same time, I don't know. I come back on a bus and was in a bus station. I was walking through the station and a very elderly man said, "Ma'am?" And I looked at him. He said, "Here's 50 cents I would like to give you." And I said, "Oh, no. I don't need that. I'm going back to the base." He said, "No, I just want to give it to some service person." I kept saying, no, but finally I saw he was so patriotic he just wanted to give it 01:06:00-- see, it almost makes me cry to think about it. And I so I took it and thanked him and went on. That was his contribution. I'll never forget that. That's much you know, but opposed to that other lady, you see.
KRJust the different reactions from the different people.
KRDid you continue to stay as a physical, in the physical area?
JAI don't know. We were there about a year and a half and I have no idea why,but all at once I got orders and I was assigned to Vero Beach. Which is, Pensacola is up in the panhandle of Texas, Vero Beach is down in the east side, 01:07:00down by the Atlantic Ocean. It's a night fighter base. I don't know why I was sent there. They maybe just needed people. I was in the control tower there. Our job, that was a night fighter base and our job was, you have men officers in charge. The planes would go up on projects. An experienced pilot would go out and the trainer, trainee would go up in his plane. They would simulate, the trainee was to find the pilot and simulate fighting. I don't know all their 01:08:00procedures. It really was dangerous. Sometimes they lost a plane and pilot,. They just disappeared in the Atlantic Ocean. It was your jobs, they would give you sheets and if Uncle 35 was to go up, you talked to Uncle 35. On out sheet, we really didn't do anything, the officer in charge did. They said, "You're supposed to go to sector 81" or something like that. That was our job. We were in contact with them to send them out on their project. Actually, that's all you did in the control tower.
KRSo you were making sure they went to the right place in this whole thing.01:09:00
KRYou weren't so much air traffic controller, but more just --
JAYes, it was like that. Then they would check in with you when their time wasup. And you, then you let the head officer know they were base on base. Like I said, it was sad when a pilot disappeared.
KRDid that happen often? A pilot disappear?
JAEvery week or so, yes. I was there when the war ended. And the instant, theinstant they got communication the war was over they did not have any more pilots go out. It was that dangerous. I'll never forget that, because we went down to report for duty. They said, "There are no pilots going out. There will 01:10:00be no more pilots going out." It was that dangerous, the training.
KRWas there celebration when the war -- what was the reaction on base when thewar ended?
JAOh yes, big celebration. Oh yes! Everybody, if you could you went into town.You didn't really have duty, ate and drank. Oh yes.
KRWhat did you do?
JAWent in town. Ate and drank (laughs).
KRDid you have a beau that you were seeing at that point that you --
JANo, not really, not really. I went with a, let's see, I went out with, when Iwas at Whiting Field I went with the chief (laughs). That was nice. Some way or 01:11:00another when I was there, you had maintenance on the link trainers. Various things would happen to them. I didn't know anything about that, but all of a sudden I decided I wanted to do maintenance. I asked the chief and he let me do it (laughs). I just had to count on information from other people. I remember that was kind of fun.
KRBut you stayed in. The war ended in '45. You said you stayed in until '46?
JAWell, yes, see you -- I don't know how they decided that, but everybody wasn'tlet out at the same time. If you wanted to stay in, you could stay in, otherwise you were on just whatever schedule they wanted you to do. Now, I did have an 01:12:00interesting thing right at the end. You've got time for that?
JAIt must have been, I could look on my sheet. I must have gotten out inNovember. And so here I am in September and early November and knew I was going to get out. It was too late -- I was going to go on the GI Bill, but it was too late, school had already started. So I decided I would like, I just might as well teach that year. I saw in the paper, I don't know how I saw it, in the local paper, that Fort Pierce -- now I'm at Vero Beach. Fort Pierce is 14 miles 01:13:00south of Vero Beach. I saw that it said they did not have a woman physical education teacher and they had started school and had gone for several weeks and they needed one. Well, that was that. I called up and they just said, "You're hired." I had my degree and all and because they didn't have anybody. They needed somebody. Now, I'm still in service. I'm going to get out, I think at the end of November, and I know it. But this is about the end of September. I thought, this isn't going to work. I may want to do it, but I can't go down there. I'm still in. Anyway, here's what happened, and this is the way things 01:14:00happen in service, even now, all the time. The other WAVE that I worked with, officer, she went with the commandant of the base. They dated and were going to get married when the war was over. Now and then, they didn't have time off. They wanted to go on a date, so I would take her duty. She said, "Trade with me because I'd like to --." So she and I did that. Not often, but enough times. That gave me an in with the commandant. During those last days before we were out, we really didn't have duty. Especially at Vero Beach, they weren't doing 01:15:00that night fighter business. You would just have to go and report and you would stay there about a half an hour and they'd say, "Go on home." That's what happened. You did not have duty, but you had to act like you had duty. So I thought, "Well, gee, I'm not doing anything here. Why can't I go down there and teach?" So I went in and talked to the commandant. "Could I get duty here at night, because we just go down and report and then you send us home? Could I teach school in the daytime and then, you know, report for duty?" He said, "Yeah, I think we can work that out." He knew that I had traded with his girl 01:16:00(laughs). Anyway, now I've got another problem. See you have gas rationing and nobody had a car. I didn't have a car then. There wasn't a bus that went to Fort Pierce. Fort Pierce is 14 miles away -- no, seven miles. I don't know why I said 14. 14 miles double.
JAIt's seven miles south. I got a bicycle. Found a second-hand bicyce. Ithought, "I can ride that seven miles. I'll just leave early in the morning and ride seven miles." So I did. Now, I have to be in uniform. I always wondered what the people at the gate, you have these sailors that check you out. Here is 01:17:00this WAVE at five thirty in the morning because it took a long time to do that and I had to get there by eight o'clock. Maybe had some things I had to do. I left at five thirty in the morning and I'm in this WAVE uniform on this bicycle in the dark going out the base. The sailor there sees that I'm an officer with the -- he just salutes me and I salute him, then I go on. And I ride my seven miles and changed clothes in the locker room and then taught physical education that that. Then after I did that a little while I found another teacher who had a car and lived there. She said, "If you can come in the morning, I'll take you 01:18:00home." So I only had to ride half of it. She someway or the other she couldn't do the early one, so that's the way that worked out. See, I only did that for a month and half or two months, something like that. Then I was out completely and then I got a little apartment at Fort Pierce and taught the rest of the school year there.
KRWere you sorry to be out of the Navy?
JAWell, I thought about staying in, but no, I wanted to go ahead and teach. Iwanted to go ahead and get my master's degree on the GI Bill, which I did.
KRWhere did you get your master's?
JAUniversity of Iowa. That at that time was one of the best physical educationschools for women. One of the good ones, there were others. But see, I couldn't 01:19:00start that year in '46, September of '46. But I had an interesting time teaching that year. An odd thing happened to me that no teacher wanted to happen, happened. I didn't know these students. You know, they just came to class. There was this softball class. There was this one girl, she asked me, "I would just like to sit down." You know, in physical education, girls there are always a 01:20:00number who are trying to do that. I would just try harder to get them to play. But with her I just said, "OK, you can keep score or you can do this or do that." Well, that, I remember that had happened. OK, this one morning I come to class and the classed lined up. I called off the names to check them off to see who was there. I called off her name and there was just dead silence. "She wasn't here?" I've forgotten her name now, but finally somebody said, "Oh, Miss Shaffer, she died over the weekend." I said, "What?" "Yes, she died." I had no idea. I said, "Well, I didn't know that." I found out later she had diabetes 01:21:00real bad. But you see now, there weren't any physicals for these kids. I remembered later that I always just kind of went along with her when she said she didn't want to play. What if she had died in class? She could have. It wouldn't necessarily have been my fault, but still. I was really shook up about that.
KRYes, I can understand that.
JABut it shows the, why you should have physicals in physical education. Anyhow,I finished the year there then I went to the University of Iowa and got my master's in about a year and a half. You asked awhile ago see, that changed my life. At that time -- now a lot of high school teachers have master's. But not many did then. So therefore, I could apply to colleges. So I, I knew quite a bit 01:22:00about field hockey which is a sport that is only played a lot in the east. It is in the Olympics all the time and they don't show it on TV because they think nobody wants to see it (laughs). They have field hockey teams in the Olympics, Oh, it just kills me. Anyway, so I got hired at Madison College in Virginia. It was a women's college. I wanted a women's college because they're the ones who had sports at that time. The eastern women's colleges and maybe others -- I don't know about the others -- but they played basketball with others around there. There were all women's colleges, most of them. So that's where I wanted 01:23:00to go. I did. I got a kick out of that. You had to find a place -- I didn't just want to teach physical education classes. I wanted to be a coach, which they're doing now, you see, all the time. It was only because I got my master's degree, because of the GI Bill. I would have probably never gotten the money together to go get a master's degree. Then I taught at a number of schools. I left there and went back to Indiana. I taught at Butler University, which is in Indianapolis. Butler University was in the last basketball tournament, you know, they always 01:24:00have good basketball. They did, they won a couple of basketball games. They were good.
KRSo you continued teaching at the collegiate level then?
JAYes, about half and half. Collegiate or junior college. After Butler I went tothe University of Nebraska and taught there for several years. Then I got married and then --
KRHow did you meet your husband?
KRHow did you meet your husband?
JAActually, one summer I went to visit a WAVE that I had known in service. I wasin Indiana, She lived in Illinois, which was the next state, 100, 150 miles away. I drove over to see her. And I don't know, she was good friends with this 01:25:00fellow. They had known each other since, I guess, kindergarten. I mean, all their life. Anyway, I got acquainted with him and he wrote to me. That's how I met him. I met him by going to visit her.
KRDid you feel any pressure from your parents that you needed to get married?
JAOh, no. No. Oh no, never.
KRBecause you got married older for a woman at that time.
JAYes. See I had been in service. I was 37 years old.
KRFor then that was really unusual.
JAYes. And he was well at that time, but he had some physical problems. So hedecided not to have children. You see, I was getting toward menopause, but not 01:26:00really. He had a form of muscular dystrophy. He could work. He was an engineer and had a job and worked. He had one thing with the foot drop. The muscles had just weakened. He -- it was strange. I don't think anybody figured it out. One doctor told him he would not live to be 50 years old. But he lived to be 73. When he had this muscle weakness in different muscles and then it just quite. It never developed -- the muscular dystrophy never developed on. He really should 01:27:00have been studied as to why that happened. Maybe it was something different than muscular dystrophy. Maybe they diagnosed it wrong. I don't know. Anyway, he and I lived 33 years before he died.
KRAnd he didn't mind that you were working.
JAOh, no. No. I suppose we wouldn't have been married. It wasn't aconsideration. Then he did -- I taught a number, I taught and he worked. That's when I went back to teaching high school I went where his job was. He taught in, I mean he worked in north Chicago. Winnetka. Oh, I didn't mention, it has 01:28:00nothing to do with the service, but it was an interesting thing. He worked with Tractormotive. Do you know anything about Winnetka? It's a very wealth area.
KRI have some cousins who live up there.
JAOh. And Nutrier is the high school. It's known as one of the best high schoolsin the United States. Not the best, but one of the best. Always has been and probably always will be, because of their tax base and the wealthy people in that area. From Nebraska, I knew a woman there who was head of the department. She left Nebraska and went there. They needed a teacher. Since my husband worked there, I applied. There was no problem, we knew each other. So I got a job at 01:29:00Nutrier. That was a heady experience too, because Nutrier is one of these high schools that has everything you ever read in an education book. They have psychologists on the staff. Every teacher, all teachers generally have a home room. And if somebody in your home room drops one grade in two subjects -- they could have an A but if they got a B in two subjects they were sent to a counselor. And you tried to figure out. If there were other problems, they got Cs or Ds, every child got sent to a counselor or a psychologist. You see, now 01:30:00most schools don't do that. If they needed assistance, there would be -- I don't know what the person would be called but they would get extra counseling, extra teaching. In the women's physical education, this woman had been here a long time. There were 14 physical education teachers on the women's staff, they had an Olympic-sized swimming pool, and you had all kinds of facilities you could ever want. It's a fabulous school. A great percentage of the students from there go to Harvard and Yale, because their parents are doctors and lawyers and have been there. The past Secretary of Defense, Rumsfield, I heard him talk about it 01:31:00on TV, he graduated from Nutrier. He was there after I was there, but I got a kick.,you see, that he would have been in that elite group. That was in interested school to teach at because it was like the Navy. You, women, like I say this woman had been there a number of years and they had all these facilities. She was a strong woman and she was entrenched in and got things for women. So that was good. That only happened, see, because I knew somebody. That's how things like that work. Networking (laughs). Then my husband took a 01:32:00job in Gallion, Ohio and I found out a neighbor, DeCarist, Ohio need a physical education teacher, so I got that job. When he moved to Gallion, Ohio, I had a job there.
KRDid you, did you end up retiring -- where did you end up retiring from?
JACoastal Carolina Community College.
KRSo you moved all over the place.
KRHow did you end up in Oregon?
JAMy husband died. We retired and lived in Florida and he died in 1988. Since wedidn't have any children, I could have stayed there. My sister lives here. I 01:33:00mean in Oregon. Her husband was a doctor and she had three children and so I just decided -- since I had been around all over, I don't mind going to a new place. I just decided to come out here. I've been here since 1988. And I've enjoyed it. She has one daughter that's here -- like one of this daughter's children was born when I came. I've never been around any little babies that were family, because I was always teaching somewhere different. I've known that child -- in fact she's graduating from high school this year. They had another 01:34:00one also. A little girl that was four years old and she's graduating from college this year. So I've known both of them since that time.
KRIt's so interesting to see how they change when they get older and turn into individuals.
JAI took care of them, you know. We -- I never knew what to do with them, butwhat we did was cook something. I mean, bake something. That was new to them. Their mother really, she worked. She didn't have time to do that, so that was fun.
KRDid you ever feel, in looking at -- that you were -- I think you knew theanswer, but I want to ask anyway. Did you ever feel you were being pushed in a certain direction?
JANo. I know what you're saying, but the answer is no. I don't know that I'm the01:35:00kind of person that that would happen.
KRI'm just very interested --
JAI know what you mean. I've -- but that's probably my resistance to thatwomen's business. I used to read a lot when I was growing up. Our parents always encouraged us to read. So I went to the little local library and always read books. One big thing my sister and I did. We had to herd cows. My father had about 12 or 13 milk cows. A good place for them to get -- do you want me to go on with stuff like this?
KRYes! It's fine -- it's your story.
JATo get grass, it happened to be a road north of us just at the edge of ourproperty. It was a little country road, but there was tall grass all along both 01:36:00sides. So if you could get the cows up there then they could eat the grass all morning. That was my sister and my job. I'd sit at one end, you see, and she'd be a third of a mile away at the other end. Each of us had a book and I read all summer. I mean -- (laughs) books from the library. In those books when you're 10, 12, 13 years old, you start finding out all these things are done by men and all these women are just kind of at home and maybe there's people like Marie Antoinette who made news. Somebody said, I saw a little sign lately that said 01:37:00something about the past women that only made news were not really good women. That's bad. That's a bad thing to think that way, you see (laughs). There were strong women in the past, they were evidently in the bible there were Ester and others who were good women. But anyway, no. I'm not a feminist. I don't happen to believe women should be in service and be one of the fighters. If you don't have the ability, see, you don't. You aren't strong enough. But you do what you can do. You can be a pilot, because that's not a matter of strength. I'm not saying that women have to do everything. It just depends on your physical capacity and mental what you can do. All my early high school days, all these 01:38:00boys were playing all these sports and we weren't doing it in our high school. And I kind of made a name for myself. I didn't know I was doing it, but I found out later it was unusual. This is a minor thing. I'm eighth grade, freshman, sophomore in high school. Every day, the boys got the gym at noon. They would be playing basketball thinking -- now not only me, but there were some other girls. I'm not the only one. "Why can't the girls get the gym sometime? Why can't we play there?" So I went to the principal, this other girl and I, and he said, 01:39:00"Well, if you can get enough girls" then you had six girls on a basketball team, not five. "If you can get twelve girls, you can play basketball. We'll get somebody to referee for you." So that's how I spent my high school days. So we could get it one week equal with the boys. Since you had five times there, you would get it two times one week and three times the next. I spent my high school going to girls saying, "Eat your lunch real fast, can you and come down? We've got to have 12 girls." I didn't care who it was, just as long as I had 12 girls. That's the way I spent my high school days. Why I say that I didn't think that was unusual, when we had our 50th high school reunion, we had -- there were only 01:40:0019 in our class. We had it at this lady's house and there was a new school built close to our high school. Our high school was still there, but it was a seventh and eighth grade school. And I didn't, I still -- they said, "You know, everybody ought to go out and see the new school." So we get in cars and go up there. Somebody says, "We should look at the old gymnasium where we used to have ball games." So we walk over and they said, "Janette, we want you to be up in front." I thought, "What's going on." They opened the doors, "Janette, here is the gymnasium." I didn't even know. See it was like it was my church or 01:41:00something. I hadn't realized that. That's the way they knew it was from all those four years trying to get people down (laughs) there to play. I'll never forget that because I didn't really expect it. Well, that's your answer to nobody -- I was pressured to do something by being limited and not knowing what things were open to women. I didn't know. I never really would have gone to Purdue. I would have went to Iowa. I would have majored in physical education. That's what I got my master's in. I didn't even realize you could hardly major in physical education. There were no counsellors or anybody around the college. 01:42:00My parent's hadn't and nobody talked about it. My parents could have -- they were intelligent people. My mother was much more intelligent than I am. She wasn't well when she was young. She didn't even -- she quit school at the eighth grade. And really, it was because she had headaches and I'm going to call it female problems -- they just didn't have the medication and things so that's why she didn't go on to high school. She's the most intelligent person in all of our relatives. She played the piano for church, read, she could have been an expert secretary or whatever. 01:43:00
KRThe reason I'm curious --
JAI know what you're getting at.
KRI'm looking a lot at the media messages that were out there, you know, youlook at the posters, or you look at the movies and those sort of things and you just had this similar, "This is what you do. This is what a woman does."
JAYes, yes, that's right.
KRAnd you did something very different. So I'm just curious how you bucked thetrend, so to speak.
JAReading all those book and seeing all those boys playing basketball and Icouldn't do it (laughs). Really!
KRWell, Janette, I think I'm going to stop things now. We're getting close todinnertime and I should probably be heading back down to Eugene (track ends).