Thorngate

Q 13:42:38 We going? Ok. Great. All right. Um, so let's start out with the easy question first which is can you please say your name so that we have that on video?

MT 13:42:50 My name is Margaret Anderson Thorngate.

Q And it's Anderson, E-N, correct?

MT 0-N.

Q O-N. Gee, see I was guessing.

MT Swedish.

Q 13:43:03 That's right. I was trying to remember and I did my guess and I guessed wrong. I know this but....

Um, and while you were in the service, you were just Margaret Anderson, correct?

MT Yes, until I got married.

Q Which was right before Pearl Harbor--no, not, before VJ Day, right?

MT Yes. Yes.

Q 13:43:16 OK. All right. Well, let's back up from that for a little bit. Tell me, um, tell me about growing up? Where'd you grow up?

MT 13:43:25 I grew up in Southern California, in the Carpinteria (sp?)/Santa 00:01:00Barbara area.

Q So tell me what that was like then. I mean, describe Carpinteria for me.

MT 13:43:41 I can remember--basically it was during the Depression but we didn't know it was during the Depression because everybody was more or less in the same fix.

13:43:55 But, we only lived about two blocks from the beach, so we went to the beach

every day during the su mmer. I learned to swim there. Grew up t here. It was a

small town--

13:44:10 only 40 people in the grad--high school graduating class. And, everybody knew

everybody. It was--the background was agricultural--mostly at that time

13:44:25 it was lemon trees, although later they started putting in avocados but at that time it was lemons . And the fields had Lima beans

13:44:36 and there were also some walnut orchards--a lot of people don't remember

about it.

Q Yeah, I always think of that as being a little bit more inland in California, not-- you don't think of those as right by the Coast, but....

MT Hmm?

Q I think of those as being more inland--you know like more on the other side of the Coastal range.

MT 13:44:50 We were so close, really close to the ocean. I wouldn't say four or five miles to the--from the ocean to the, the, um, Coast range, where it started, in the hills.

Q Um, what did you think in....

(Discussion about eye glasses, catching reflection.)

Q It's probably that one over there....

MT 13:45:15 Should I take 'em off?

Q Would you be comfortable--can you see with them off? Would you be comfortable with them off?

MT Well, they hide a multiple sins when I have my glasses on .

Q Um, see if we can tilt that one maybe?

(Continuing discussion about eye glasses.)

MT 13:45:30 Maybe if I bent down or something?

Q No, no, no, no. Yeah, look straight at me again Margaret. Yeah, it's that one over--that one over there is catching something and I think when we move 00:03:00this light we may have moved it in such a way to .... So look at me. Margaret, can you look over here? I know that...look at my hand,

13:45:45 even though there's not...that's right there. Um, yeah, that's worse. Whoa. Ok, over here again. That kinda helps.

13:46:06 It's not great . I mean if you can see without them, that's fine but...ls that ok?

MT I can see well without 'em but I've got wrinkles and things here that the glasses cover up.

Q 13:46:20 Actually, let's get the light back there where it was, David , so we can...'cause that way we can see....and get the shade and the shadow off. Yeah it was, it was...no it was that way. Yeah, opened up. Again look...yeah, I think that that's....a little bit more...maybe a little bit 00:04:00back this way. Yeah, I think that's good. Um....

MT 13:46:47 Now I put the glasses back?

Q No. For some reason it's looking darker than it did before, David . (More discussion of lighting)

MT I wonder why it didn't show up before.

Q 13:47:41 (Discussion regarding lighting--inaudible.) Yeah, I think we need to go more like that. Yeah. That's it. Alright. Let me sit down and be happy, andAlright.

Are we good? On your side? Ok.

Um, so tell me a little bit about, um, what sort of expectations did youwhat

did you think you were going to do when you grew up---living, you know--in say high school?

MT 13: 47:58

13:48:17 I don't think that we had too much beyond what we allowed to do. For instance , there was a, a scholarship committee that picked,

chose people for, to go to college and those girls that picked odd, unacceptable or difficult careers just did not get the scholarships.

Q 13:48:34 So what would be like...what were, what were the safe careers?

MT 13:48:51 Like one of them, like, wanted to be a lawyer. I wanted to be a 00:06:00great writer.

But, the ones who put in for business schools

or teachers or things like that which were acceptable and well open for women, they got the ch oices.

Q So there were sort of limits on what you were supposed to do?

MT Yes.

Q OK. Um, how did that make you...how did you feel about that? How did that make you feel?

MT 13:49:08 It was just a way of life. You just accepted it and hoped that maybe you could squeak by.

Q I know before you kind of said that, you know, there was, you know, that you were kind of--you had bigger goals for yoursel f. You know, you were hoping to do something, something different than what you saw as being limits.

MT 13:49:26 Yeah.

Q Can you explain that for me?

MT 13:49:30 Well, I wanted to get out of Carpinteria for one thing . I wanted to 00:07:00see the world. I suppose I had a lot of great ideas but you just didn't really expect them to happen.

Q 13:49:44 Um, when Pearl Harbor happened, what was your reaction? Tell me about that--when you heard about th at .

MT 13:49:52 It was terrifying because we were right on the Coast. We didn' t know where the Japanese were. They could have come right up and invaded the Coast if they had only known what was going on.

There were two or three places in California where there were passes. One of them was Cajon Pass where a bomb could have wiped out all transportation

getting into California and there were several places like that. And, we were sure that the Japanese living there had given that information to the Japanese

so we were pretty scared and thought that it could happen.

13:50:08 13:50:23 13:50:38 Q Um, so, what did you try to do...l mean, what did you end up doing to try to, um, to try to help with that at least initially, before and I'm talking before you joined the WAVES here?

MT 13:50:53 I was only 18, just barely 18, when the war happened and you couldn't get in

the WAVES, see, when...until you were 20. And, of course, there weren't any

women in the service for about six months after war was declared.

13:51:09 However, looking back on it, the government really did start to prepare the

Coast for something because the civil defense went into action almost right

away.

13:51:23 There were dim outs, get your blackout curtains and things like that for the

whole Coast. Also, the draft had been in effect for almost a year

and so there were, many men were qualified to go into this action, into the

13:51:37 service, and they had also pulled in National Guard outfits for all over,

13:51:52 for training. The California Guard was up in Fort Lewis, Washington, for one.

And, so when the attack happened, they rushed these Guard units and other

things all up and down the Coast

13:52:09 so it, within a matter of days, really, or week or two, the whole Coast had, was

manned by the Army units.

13:52:23 But there was no place to really put them and so there were tent cities all over, the polo field right near where I lived was full of who knows how many, 10,000

maybe, men there .

13:52:39 And so, they lived that way for about, oh, about six months I guess before they

finally had places to really house the people.

Q 13:52:53 So they were, they were putting them in these places and what was the idea of getting the men all there? Why were they, why did they move all the soldiers to the Coastline?

MT Because they were gonna be invaded and they had to defend it . In case they were invaded.

Q 13:53:07 So, you also kind ended up stepping in for a little bit to help out as well, correct? I mean, you were as civilians also called upon to help out.

MT That was the Civil Defense, the civilians, and the, um, one of the first things

that they did

13:53:22 was called the Fourth Interceptor Command, in which, there was no radar, so we learned--had aircraft identification classes and then the people took turns

13:53:36 being aircraft observers. And then Carpinteria had this post on a sand 00:11:00dune and people took turns in manning the post and calling in airplanes.

Q 15:53:51 So you, so what would you do when you were sitting on your sand dune? I mean, I've got, I've got pictures of you in shorts sunning yourself sitting on the sand dune, but, I'm sure there were other more official things that you were doing while you were there.

MT 15:54:03 Well, there was, right down from where ours was a beach park and then there was a whole long battalion

army stationed there and once in a while, they would walk up the beach, coast guard would walk up the beach. So we had a lot of fun.

15:54:17 Q Um, is this were you met Fred?

MT 15:54:31 Yes. When I look back, oh, God, I was a teenager, 19. And, uh, he 00:12:00was an

officer stationed down there and so he came, came up one day walking and

walking along the beach in these cream bathing trunks.

15:54:49 And he introduced himself and, t hat's how we got acquainted. But they moved

people around a great deal so, um, they were never, the same ones were

never there more than two or three months at the most .

Q 13:55:07 So you barely, I mean, you got to--barely got to know him and he shipped out.

MT Yeah, yeah, but we wrote. I think we both had a lot, lot of what you call growing up to do, but wild oats to sew.

Q 13:55:20 But you kept in touch with... (Discussi on re audio.)

Q 13:55:37 So, um, so you kept in touch throughout the entire--then you kept in 00:13:00touch throughout the entire time.

MT (Nods)

Q Um, in the meantime, what did you--1 mean, were, you know, was the civil defense work, was that enough for you or did you want to do something else?

MT 13:55:53

13:56:08 Oh, oh no. That was only a Sunday afternoon, um, job. Volunteer. I finally got a job down in Portwine (sp?)

working for the Navy base there in the requisition depart ment. So that I stayed there until almost until I was ready to go into the WAVES.

Q Uh, how did you hear about the WAVES?

MT Huh?

Q 13:56:24 How did you hear about the WAVES?

MT I wanted to join the WAVES from the time that they were started. And, I remember to go down (not sure of all the words here) and I used to pretend like 00:14:00I was 20, you know. I really thought it was great.

Q 13:56:39 What was so appealing about it?

MT 13:56:53 I don't know. Mainly, getting into a uniform. 1--because we'd have--by that time we'd have so many people that you know being drafted,

being sent away, dying, who--whatever and you just wanted to be in and do more for it. It was a very patriotic thing.

Q By why, why the WAVES and not one of the other groups, I mean, there were-- the Army women were started before and you could get in early--younger in

the Army?

MT 13:57:11 I thought that the WAVES--ok, well, here goes--the Waves had the cutest uniform.

Q 13:57:23 But the uniform was really gorgeous. I mean, it wasn't just cute it was a really pretty, pretty, pretty uniform.

MT Yeah, I've got it--my original one out there.

Q 13:57:31 We'll take a look at it once we're done, once we're done taping. But, um, yeah, I mean, it's not a, you know, it's not a necessarily--and you're not the only woman who said that.

MT 13:57:49 And then one time when I was thinking about joining and one of these fellas that I knew, he says,

"Why join the Army?" He said, "You'd be much cuter as a WAVE," and that did it.

Q Um, tell me what was so appealing about the uniform. What did you like-- what did you like about it?

MT 13:58:05 The color for one thing and the snappy cut to it. And I think that was it.

Q Was it--did you know at the time that it was a designer uniform even when you were joining?

MT No, I didn't. That was the least of my....

Q 13:58:24 OK. I'm just--yeah, 'cause some women were really aware of that, that's why I asked, you know. Some people really knew about that even beforehand. They said that was the reason.

MT Yeah, Mainbocher. Yeah, right.

Q 13:58:34 Um, so you joined---when--so when did you end up joining? Right when you

turned 20?

MT 13:58:51 No, not quite because I was 20 before Christmas so I waited 'til after Christmas to join and then I had to be put on a hold by then so it was

probably around the first of February before I actually got to New York.

Q What do you mean you had to be put on hold? What is that?

MT Well, you know, they only send so many people every two weeks.

Q 13:59:04 So they had to wait until they had something open to you--for you to do that?

MT Yes.

Q Ok. So tell me about, um, the--you pointed out a picture in there and you were describing that -- about the first time that you were on that troop train, and tell me about what that was like.

MT 13:59:22

13:59:40

13:59:54 Ok. In those days, women--when women traveled, they wore high heels and gloves and hats. So naturally, when we got orders to take the train

almost everybody reported for active duty wearing high heels, hats and, and gloves. However, most of the high heels were

the regulation Navy high heels because we got coupons before we went for two inch heel--pump, to wear for dress.

Q And so you're wearing the little like two inch--little--it's a low--it' s a low heel but it's still a heel, little two inch.

MT 14:00:09 About like that, you know, nice, nice, nice heel.

Q And that was something, that, um, getting a requisition for that, that was kind of a special thing to get.

MT 14 :00:19 We had--at that time, shoes were rati oned. I don't remember how many pairs you got a year--maybe one. But we got a special ration coupon to go buy these special shoes.

Q So you got a--you got kind of extra shoes--a shoe bonus, so to speak?

MT 14 :00:40 Well, we couldn't use the rest of 'em anyway so, well once we got, you know, through boot camp.

Q Yeah. So what was it like traveling across--do you remember anything on the train trip across country?

MT 14 :00 :51 It was long. It was interesting because I was interested in seeing the country. I

hadn't been out of the state really. And going to New York, we were looking

forward to the big city and the excitement .

14:01:09 But the troop train had shore patrol watched--guarded us or guarded people

from going in. And course there were no showers

14:01:24 or anything like that on the troop train so you're four days in a crowded troop

train. You really wanted to shower by the time you got to New York.

Q 14 :01 :35 Yeah, I'm sure. Those fancy dresses and high heels got to be a 00:19:00little bit wilted by the time you got there.

MT Hooking back I think I took a pair of moccasins that I wore but a lot of 'em didn't . They wore spike heels and everything.

Q 14:01:54 Um, what did you think when you got to New York? I mean, what was that-- you know, now, were you met at the--did you go into--were you met at the st ati on. I mean, how did they do all of that?

MT 14:02:03 Well, the train got into one of the big stations--1 think it was Grand Central Station and then we were put on subways that took us out to the Bronx. When we got to the Bronx,

14:02:17 we were taken to an armory and that's where our luggage was. The armory

was the--1 guess, where we registered that we were there and I never saw but

about two of the California group--

14:02:37 there were 80 of 'em so we were all dispersed all over and so they 00:20:00didn't keep

the California group all together. And, we were given our hats--that's the first

thing we were given so the people would know we were in the Navy, I guess.

14:02:53 And, then we were taken to walk down the street carrying our suitcases to our

barracks. Well, the barracks were apartment buildings that had been taken

over

14:03:08 by the government there in the Bronx. There were--they were one bedroom,

one bath apartments and they had to do for ten people, with five sets of

bunks.

14:03:25 So looking back I wondered, how, you know, ten people and one bathroom,

but I think in those days most houses were lucky to have one bathroom in

some cases. So, we never had any problems with that .

Q 14:03:41 Uh, huh. Um, what did you think about boot camp?

MT 14:03:57 Boot camp? I think I was kind of disappointed in some ways

that it--we didn't have more marching or going out and doing things. It was mostly sitting in and getting lectures in what to do and what not to do and, physical exercise.

Q 14:04:13 So you didn't do a whole lot of formations or go out on the--go out in groups in town or that sort of thing?

MT We did have to learn to march for the regimental review every Saturday.

Q 14:04:25 Uh, huh. But you didn't have it as much as you would have liked, you said. You

felt that you--you would have liked to have seen more?

MT Yeah. Yeah, I think I would 'cause I liked that.

Q 14:04:36 What did you like about it?

MT 14:04:48 I don't know --just maybe the cadence or in the end the rhyt 00:22:00hm. And they usually had a--maybe it's because of the marching bands.

I was in the band--marching band when I was in high school and I still like that.

Q OK. What were you hoping to do? What job were you hoping to get?

MT 14:05:01 Well, I think I went back--expecting to be put in the nursing t hing. But then when I got back there, I heard too many things against it so

14:05 :21 I didn't have much of a choice. We were in a groups where a lot of the good jobs were already taken and they were filling in with desk jobs. So, I ended up with yeoman school in Cedar Falls, Iowa .

Q 14:05:34 Uh, huh. And that was, um--and explain what a yeoman is. So if people 00:23:00are not Navy, what does a yeoman do?

MT It's off ice, secretarial duties, anything along that line.

Q 14:05:48 OK. Um, where did you end up getting--getting stationed when you were doing--when--aft er you went through yeoman school--through yeoman school?

MT San Francisco, Cali fo rnia .

Q And was that a choice?

MT 14:06 :02 Yes, at the time it was. It was a great place.

Q Yeah. And did they ask--1 mean, was that a selection--so you were able to say

I'd like to go the West Coast or I'd hoped to go to San Francisco or did they....

MT 14:06:15 I think the Navy probably did give you a choice but everybody knew they'd send you wherever they wanted you to go.

Q So you got San Francisco which isn't--it's not a bad assignment.

MT 14:06 : 28 Well, if you want to know the truth, we were a little bit up on the Navy so we would put down as a number one choice someplace we didn't 00:24:00want to go.

Q OK, so then hopefully you would get your number two choice.

MT 14:06 :41 Number two choice.

Q I got it. I got it. So do you remember what your number one choice was--your-

-your--well, your, your fake number one choice?

MT 14:06:50 Uh, with our group we all put down Jacksonville, Florida, because there was only one assignment to Jacksonville, Fl orida.

Q 14:07:03 And then you ended up in San Francisco. So what did you do in San Francisco? You were--you worked at the--you worked at the Federal Building, correct?

MT 14 :07 :10 Yes, the Federal Building downtown San Francisco was kind of a blow because

you really expected to be on the Navy base more with more atmosphere, men,

or something like that and

14:07:23 here we were in the Federal Office Building downtown San Francisco and there

were about three men in the whole office. All the rest of 'em were WAVES,

mostly enlisted, some of 'em were officers.

Q 14:07 :40 And you didn't live on base either.

MT 14:07:43 No, we didn't. They had a--taken over a women's club that they had for WAVES barracks. By the time we got there, they were full so we just--

they put us out in houses first. And then but we didn't like those, we could

14:07:54

change and move any place we wanted.

Q So, and the Navy paid you for all this.

MT 14:08:06

14:08:22 Yes, we got subsistence and quarters allowance which was about , I think about $3.00 a day and then my rating was $78 a month

so that came to about--at that time--about $160-$170 a month. When I went into the Navy I was only making $90 a month in the job I had so....

Q So you were making out?

MT 14:08:39 Yeah, yeah. We were doing good.

Q It's, ahh--yeah, so I think before you told me you were "living the life of Ril ey."

MT Yeah, yeah. Right.

Q 14:08:49 Um, so you're--you've got your, your apart ment--so there's not really this sort of you know--- ' cause a lot of women I've talked to talk about the regimentation, they had to be, you know, they had to be in their bed by a certain time every night.none ofthat for you guys?

MT 14:09:04 Nope . The only bad thing about it --- it was terrible was the fact that if you

were sick there was no sick bay to go to close by. And, you'd call up and say

you were sick and they'd say "go to sick bay."

14:09:21 Well it might be 15 miles to the closest Navy sick bay and you' d have to go on

streetcars and so forth and you'd die before you get there .

Q Almost easier to just stay home.

MT 14:09:35 Well, you couldn't stay home. If you stayed home they would 00:27:00send somebody out--at least they said they would send, send somebody out to get you, so, and put you in Treasure Island. Isn't that where your mother was?

Q That's where my mother was.

MT 14:09:47 Ok, well, that was a penalty. They'd send you to the, to the, sick bay and Treasure Island.

Q She was probably working there. She was a pharmacists mate, so....

MT That was the only bad, bad deal about it at all.

Q 14:10:03 So where was your apartment?

MT It was in the old German Embassy on, let's see -- Jackson and Pacific Streets, I think. Pacific--Jackson must have been the one by the park. Pacific is going downhill, I think--down to the marina.

Q OK

MT 14:10:23 So we had a good view. Yeah.

Q I mean you'd take the cable cars and....

MT Yeah.

Q Or the trolleys into work?

MT 14:10:30 Either one. We had all kinds of.Most of the time we'd go get in a taxi--take

home, we'd get a taxi for a dollar and they'd take four or five of us 00:28:00in a taxi 20

cents.

Q 14:10:43

14:10:58 That's better than a cable car. At least more direct. Um, while you were there, I know, um, and we've talked about this before but I want to make sure we get it on, on tape here as well, um,

you told me you had a couple of chances to get outside of the--outside of the Navy--outside of your job and do some kind of interesting things. And one of the things that you did, um, you told me about the time, you got to, you go to tour the USS Missouri.

MT 14:11:12 OK. The USS Missouri was in, um, the harbor and dock someplace being fitted for the Pacific final fitting.

And somehow, somebody got this tickets, a bunch of us tickets or--to take, uh, go down and tour the Missouri. So, we went.

And it--they were--let's see--we went up and down ladders and I think we were more worried about the sailors looking up the ladders at our skirts than anything else.

But, I pulled away and got--was talking to a couple sailors on the deck who were painting. And, so one of 'em said, gave me the brush and said,

"How 'bout painting a few strokes for luck." So, I said, " Sure." So, I took the brush--it was gray paint, enamel paint, and did a little like that and I said, "There. Now the USS Missouri will be the luckiest ship in the fleet."

And of course it was because months later that's where the, um--what did they call it now? It was Peace Pact was signed. At that time it was the 00:30:00surrender but they politically changed it to something else now.

14:11:25 14:11:39 14:11:57 14:12:10 14:12:28 Q 14:12:47 The treaty with Japan...

MT Yeah, the Treaty of Japan, yeah?

Q That the war was over. Now and you went back and visited the Missouri afterwards?

MT 14:12:55 Yes, I did. So this was many years later when I was, came in to Astoria, and Fred and I went up to see it and we got there too late for that thing, for the one day,

14:13:09 so we're standing there and I was talking to one of the guards--Navy guards

there . And , I told him about being there and painting it and so forth. So, he

said, "Wait a minute."

14:13:24 And he came back with these two men--they were officer s. And I told 'em

what had happened and the one said, "Tell me exactly where you painted. Can

you remember?" And I described it as much,

14:13:39 which side of the ship, I sai d. So he took and showed me. He said, "Is this about

where it was?" And I said, "Yes." And there was the plaque. So it was kind of

eerie.

Q 14:13:53 And what did the plaque--tell me what the plaque said?

MT I don't remember what it sai d.

Q But what was the--what was--was it--what was it commemorating? Was it commemorating...?

MT 14:14:00 It was commemorating the Treaty.

Q So it was the spot--was it the spot...?

MT Yeah.

Q Where the Treaty had been signed?

MT Yeah. Yeah, uh, huh.

Q Ok. And what about, um--you also had a chance to go to t he, um, to see the United Nations, right?

MT 14:14:15 Yes, um.

Q Well, what was the precursor to that?

MT The Federal Office Building was located right by some other buildings for the, the, um, United Nations Peace Conference was being held and it was there for about two months.

Q Uh, huh.

MT 14:14:34 And when it was over, our, about 30 of us from our office got to go 00:32:00over and witness the actual signing with all those big wheels from all over the --like, I can't think--it was Russia, and a whole bunch of 'em.

Q 14:14:53 And how did you get chosen for that? Do you remember how that, how that happened?

MT No. I just think they just said, "How would you like to go?"

Q And since you were in the Federal Building you were close by and?

MT 14:15:03 Yes, 'cause we were right there.

Q It was right across the street from you, right?

MT Yeah, right.

Q OK. Um, tell me about the war, um, the end, the end of the war. I mean, you know, were you, you, I know, that you, you guys got married right....

MT 14:15:22 At the end .

Q Right at the end, right?

MT Yeah, right. About three weeks before it ended.

Q And you were on your honeymoon during V, during VJ Day, right?

MT Yeah.

Q Yeah.

MT Yeah, so I missed out on all of the excitement in San Francisco.

Q 14:15:37 Well, you probably were having some excitement of your own though.

MT Um, I think I got loaded.

Q 14:15:47 Um, what was that like, I mean, you, my mom and dad met during the service as well . I mean, he was a--he was a flyer; he was based in San Francisco and so he would come in and out and that's how they got together.

Um, tell me about that--that whole war-time romance thing . I mean, what was it like? You know, how did you guys manage to keep in touch and stay connected 'cause it seems like it'd be really hard?

14:15:58 MT 14:16:12 We just wrote letters. And he was overseas by that time, and the war ended and he thought he was gonna go to the Pacific and get killed I guess so he thought

if he's gonna do it, he better do it... had to leave.

14:16:28 Q But that's, I mean, when you think about, when you think back on that, that's a huge leap of faith to be making, I mean, someone that 00:34:00you've known, you knew really for a couple of months....

MT 14:16:41 It is.

Q I mean , you wrote a few letters?

MT Sometimes, you'd think it's--it was a dumb thing to do but it's last ed 64 years.

Q So it couldn't have been that dumb.

MT 14:16:56 Well, I think you have a lot of time to think, too, with, with letters.

Q Uh, huh. It's just something that I, you know, I can't imagine, I think that like the generation now, I don't think could really imagine that sort of thing.

MT 14:17:11 Well, how 'bout these email ones?

Q That's t rue. That's true.

MT That's, that's the modern way of doing it.

Q 14:17:20 That's true. Yeah. Um, so you guys got married and then the war ends?

MT Yeah.

Q So then you...?

MT 14:17:29 So then he went, he joined his unit and went to Texas and then I had to stay about two more months before I got out and then I joined him in Texas.

Q Did you have any desire to stay in the Navy any longer than that?

MT At that time, no.

Q Why not?

MT 14:17:48 Well, because I was a new bride. I had to get down to my hubby.

David? (Inaudible)

Q OK. Well, that's a, you know, that's, that would be a, that would be a reason.

MT I was probably a little bit pregnant too.

Q 14:18:05 Uh, huh. That would be a reason not to stay in. They wouldn't let you st ay. But, hey, if you, you know, let's say, you know you were still a new bride but you weren't--you know you didn't maybe have, you weren't as they said then "in the family way,"

14:18:18 would you still have wanted, would there have been any desire at that time to stay in or were you--was it at this point feeling like you were ready to move on?

MT 14:18:25

14:18:41 I was ready to move on. I was, really was. !--because I didn' t get to be in any of the special fields that I would have liked to have been in, 00:36:00like communications.

However, in today's Navy, I would--1 certainly recommend women to do it because they've got all the opportunities in the world.

Q 14:18:54 Uh, huh. Yeah, it's a lot different than it was.

MT Oh, yes.

Q 14:18:58 A lot different. Um, how do you, I mean, do you, do you, were you, you know,

looking back do you regret not staying in? I mean, do you think, 'cause I know

some women did. I mean like we talked about Ilene and Ilene stuck with it and

then she went back during Korea.

14:19 :13 I mean, she wasn't married at the time but....

MT I think if I hadn't gotten married, I think, I might have stayed in.

Q Uh, huh.

MT 14 :19:25 Or at least I would have, um, taken advantage of the GI Bill and, and gone to college for a couple years.

Q Yeah, 'cause that was an opportunity that you could have, that you could 00:37:00have, that a lot of the women...

MT Yes.

Q 14:19:40 Did. I know that many women that I've talked to have done that.

MT But I just didn't have the opportunity where we lived when I was married.

Q Um, how do you think, or do you think being in the WAVES, how did, did it impact your life?

MT 14:19:56 Yes. Yes, it did. It gave me a different insight of people and places and import ance . I always felt important strutting down the street in the WAVE uniform.

And, we met some people from all over. I had three people, WAVES roommates, that we stayed together or kept in touch 'til they died.

And, one of the reasons I went into WAVES National was when one of 'em died and there just, I just didn't know anybody that had been in the WAVES and I 00:38:00thought it would've been something special.

th

So, I went to a reunion, the 50 Anniversary of the WAVES in Norfolk, Virginia.

14:20:12 14:20:30 14:20:46 Q Uh, huh.

MT 14:20:56 And I thought that--then I met this woman who was a captain. She was only about 40 or something but she was a captain and we got to talking about it and she told me

how important that the World War II WAVES were because they were the pioneers that got things started, and she said she never would have been able to be a captain

at her age if somebody else hadn't done things beforehand and, and moved up. And it was actually about 30 years, to 1970, before they took

women into the Navy or any branches of the service on the same equality of men.

14:21:09 14:21:22 14:21:36 Q Uh, huh.

MT So, then I felt a little bit better (or bitter?) about it. Somebody had to start at the beginning and take the brunt of the t hings.

Q 14:21:52 And what about for society as a whole? Do you think that they...you mean, beside from the, you said that they definitely impacted the Navy and how the Navy did t hings. You know, changing...getting more equality for women in the Navy. What about overall in society? Do you think that there was a?

MT 14:22:05 I think that they probably was all over I just knew about the Navy 'cause I was in touch with the Navy.

Q OK.

MT But I'm sure it was the same all, all over.

Q 14:22:16 Can you think of any...?

David One thing I would like to do is just have--Margaret, I would like to get a close up on the pins and your medal just and maybe you could explain a little bit about them....

Q Oh, yeah, that would be good.

MT Oh, these are just, just....

Q 14:22:28 Hang on a second, let David start....

MT These are just the Navy insignia and this is a....

Q Hang on just a second, let him, let him, let him....

David There, there's our technical... OK.

Q 14:22:41 OK. So what are the pins that you have here. So explain what these pins....

MT That's the Veteran's Pin for being in the service .

Q Is that an Oregon Vet eran ' s Pin? Is that one of those or just a general one?

MT 14:22:51 I think it's Oregon . But this is, this is the medal that the State of Oregon gives you.

Q And you got that--tell me when you got--explain when you got that 'cause I was at that--1 was at the meeting when you guys, or the event where you all got this. So describe what happened for that, with that, what that medal is.

MT 14:23:10 It's a Veterans of Oregon Honorable Service Medal that they're given out....

Q 14:23:27 Can you turn it around so David can see it and just kind of hold it so he canhere, just flip it just a little bit. You got it, David? OK.

Um, and so, and this was given to you at a Women's Veterans Conference, correct?

MT 14:23:41 Yes, yes, yes. And then they've been going around to different 00:41:00parts of the state and giving them out

so Fred got--finally got one and they came here to Fl orence. I wear it all the time.

Q It's a nice thing to put on...

MT Yeah.

Q It's a nice honor. And so, OK, so then what else do you, your flight pin and then what's ....

MT 14:23:54 This is the official WAVES insignia .

Q Ok. (discussion with David) And so tell me what's, what is there and descr ibe it for me. Describe it for us.

MT 14:24:06 Well, it an anchor and it's got the rope around the anchor and that ' s a pro peller, I guess.

Q OK. And this was also something that was on your uniform?

MT Yes. It's....

Q 14:24:22 We've got the magic uniform flying in. Thank you, Fred.

MT Well, on the uniform, it' s, was the, blue, shades of blue.

Q 14:24:35 Yeah, I knew that they wouldn't, they, they, they didn't 00:42:00have, wouldn't allow the gold because they said--when I was reading Mildred Mcafee's (sp?) oral history she said that they wouldn't let the women have the gold because there was a shortage of gold brai d. And, but, and but she was really glad that

act uall y, it didn't, because she thought it was, it could be really garish.

MT 14:24:52 And this is the Petty Officer insignia, with the yeoman, the crossed pens is the yeoman, and then the two stripes because I was a second class.

Q 14:25:02 Ok. And you were in the Navy, you joined in 1944 and were, it was early '44 and then were out in '45 so you in there for about....

MT I was...

Q About eighteen months or so?

MT Twenty.

Q Twenty, Ok.

MT 14:25:14 Twenty, twenty-one months.

Q Ok. Any other questions that you can think of? Ok. I think we're good.

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